UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

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Dr. Zoidberg
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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Dr. Zoidberg » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:38 am

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Big Boss Man
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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Big Boss Man » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:05 am

I think most folks still equate the Union Jack/St George with skinheads and the EDL/NF mob. I think the lack of the flag being flown is because of them sadly. Its the whole connotations of what they say and do which tarnishes things. I agree it has improved, slightly, but it's like with football hooliganism. It's still around, now they fight away from the stadiums but hooliganism still exists which ties with the whole national fronting persona they give off. I referenced the Cool Britannia period earlier, David Bowies Union Jack suit, Noels guitar etc but I think on the whole the country still associate the Union Jack with the ESL/NF et al. Otherwise I don't get the depatriotism of England. I also think socialism and socialists are a whole league about EDL types. They actually do good yet the EDL/NF muddy the waters and aim to harm race relations and the like. I think them adopting the flag to pursue their wares is what has made the Union Jack and St George sullied. I think the PC brigade dictate that it's associated with racist or racist overtones. I think it being only acceptable during Royal Family celebrations and sporting events is all kinds of wrong. Maybe if everyone flew the flag then it would take the EDL/NF power away and stomp them out for good. I understand being proud of your country but they are using that avenue to incite trouble and start fights etc. So really the real issue is with them then perhaps we'll see the flag being flown freely and not hidden away or coming out only on special occasions.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Bandit » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:22 am

I think most folks still equate the Union Jack/St George with skinheads and the EDL/NF mob.


Didn't Morrissey get called a racist for posing with a Union Jack right before Oasis made it cool?

I think it being only acceptable during Royal Family celebrations


That's strange to me. It's only okay during the time everybody should be mad about it. It's like if America hated it then all agreed we should put out flags on Donald Trump's birthday or something.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Matisfaction » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:24 am

Bandit wrote:Didn't Morrissey get called a racist for posing with a Union Jack right before Oasis made it cool?


He wasn't called a racist, but some sections of the press criticised him for it.

Even before the Oasis/Cool Britannia phase, the EDL/National Front have never "owned" the Union Jack. In fact Union Jack swim shorts and towels were really popular in the 80s as just a fashion thing, people used to take them on holiday etc.

Even now you can buy Union Jack themed stuff from pretty much every major retail outlet, nobody has ever been called out for having a set of Union Jack cushions as far as I can remember.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Bandit » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:01 pm

Yeah, it was just by NME.

Under the direction of Danny Kelly in the early Nineties, the ‘NME’ became known colloquially as the ‘New Morrissey Express‘: every time they put the former Smiths front-man on the cover, sales spiked. “Morrissey was perfect for ‘NME’ because he was intelligent and articulate,” says Andrew Collins, a former writer for the paper.

Forget Acid House and Baggy, Morrissey was the ‘NME‘, something which made what happened in August 1992 all the more strange.

The paper’s sole black writer, Dele Fadele, arrived at the office, fuming. “Dele was an amazing guy,” says Collins, “a fabled African prince who lived in a squat. He came in to work absolutely impassioned and offended by what he’d seen at Finsbury Park.”

As Fadele described it to the rest of the staff, Morrissey had waved a Union Jack thrown on to the stage in front of a huge picture of two skinhead girls taken by ‘NME’ photographer Derek Ridgers in 1980. It was a provocative move in front of Madness’ crowd, which had always been dogged by an unaccountable association with the Far Right. But the fact that Morrissey’s set also included the songs ‘Bengali in Platforms’ and a new track, ‘The National Front Disco,’ seemed calculated to inflame both the right-wing and liberal members of the crowd, for entirely different reasons.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Big Boss Man » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:51 am

The EDL/NF have adopted the Union Jack and St George as their own and due to their hate preaching, violence etc most folks associate that with them. There's a difference between UK and England themed stuff, more so who buys it I guess. If I saw someone with cushions I'd think cool but a person with a Union Jack flag t shirt on, depending on their appearance that they are EDL/NF. Hence why people are brought to task about it.

I think they should ban them using the flag in their literature and such. I'd imagine if say a far right facist racist group used a countries flag they'd be a uproar. Essentially the EDL/NF have made the flags akin to a confederate flag with the connotations that has. I am 110% for genuine patriotism but beating people up, shouting racial abuse, smashing things up etc isn't patriotism, it's hooliganism, xenophobic and low life. I think everyone would agree the flag of St George and the Union Jack should represent the true values of England and Great Britain. Taking back the flag and making it a sign of solidarity for all UK citizens regardless of colour. I don't think there's any argument there. Everyone should be proud of the UK and not feel ashamed to fly the flag but I think because of its iconography with nationalist groups it tarnishes its image. Until that stigma is removed then it will only be selective patriotism which I think is wrong. St George's Day should be celebrated instead it's just a day on the calendar. Again I think there needs to be like a parliamentary debate on the apparent depatriotisation of the UK. There's tons of things England and the UK can be proud of so those great and cool aspects need to be amplified.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Matisfaction » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:58 am

I'd imagine if say a far right facist racist group used a countries flag they'd be a uproar


They do in other countries: Germany, France, Russia and many other parts of Europe, where you could argue is a bigger problem right now than it is in the UK.

Even during the 80s when this kind of thing was a lot bigger, the flag had some negative aspects attached to it in some scenarios, but it's never been regarded as a purely racist symbol.

Nowadays it's looked at as a good thing, especially around 96/97 when there was a big shift. I guess that's one good thing that's come from the Spice Girls..

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Bandit » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:40 am

I guess we're lucky our really far right groups go with the swastika. The flag waivers are just harmless conservatives, which give the flag a negative light to far left people, but it's not attached to violent groups. And they just kind of roll their eyes at them rather than outright condemn them. So if Morrissey was American the music press just would call him corny and said he should go into country music if he wants to have a flag as part of his act.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Matisfaction » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:03 am

No is a weird time with leaving the EU, most of the media made a bit of meal out of it and went way too far with the racist angle. But generally If Morrissey did that before this refferendum stuff started to blow up, I don't think any one would really give a shit.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Dr. Zoidberg » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:11 pm


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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Matisfaction » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:27 pm

No better time to call one for the Tories, practically guaranteed to remain in power and scoop up more seats, diminishing SNP/Labour/Lib Dems influence in parliament.

You're also getting a second referendum, a win would be the final death blow to the remain camp.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Dr. Zoidberg » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:44 pm

People are saying that the only good thing that will come from this election is that Corbyn will be gone after it's done.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Big Boss Man » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:08 am

Corbyn is absolutely terrible, has no likability about him whatsoever. Labour should have went with David Milliband when they had the chance. Maybe a New New New Labour will emerge from the ashes. Unless there's a rainbow coalition it's unfortunately a landslide victory for the Conservatives. Their cut, cut, cut policies might be their undoing but it's unlikely. There's no clear vision from any other party and Labour and Lib Dems reputations are in tatters so it'll be a cakewalk for the Tories. That is unless Corbyn turns babyface, reverses Brexit, actually has policies and doesn't cripple public services with cuts then it might shake things up. Because a tories win I think guarantees privatisation of the NHS, a toughened glass ceiling for the working classes, the rich getting richer and the poor getting poor. In other words the same old that happened in the 80s when Thatcher was in power.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Matisfaction » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:49 am

Dr. Zoidberg wrote:People are saying that the only good thing that will come from this election is that Corbyn will be gone after it's done.


Thing is what's the alternative? "Tory Lite" if the "Blair-ites" have their way. Labour need to be different, not just adopting watered down Tory policies.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Bandit » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:03 am

And being "conservative lite" only works once. It worked for Bill Clinton, but when Al Gore and John Kerry tried it they lost to George W. Bush. Voters who remember where the Tony Blair era ended (unpopular and involved in scandals) will just stay home on election day.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Matisfaction » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:35 pm

Also people forget that Labour's nosedive into oblivion was under Ed Miliband's watch, not Corbyn.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Big Boss Man » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:26 pm

Yep that's true. He was devoid of any real charisma or likability and came across as rather like a Mr Bean type. Him and his Ten Commandments type pledges set in stone was like a scene out of a Mel Brooks movie. What Labour needs is a no BS, charmer type who can stir the nation into action and appeal to people all across the board. I think one who represents the people and not be a former Eton/Oxbridge type who tells it like it is but not in an obtuse Corbyn type way would be appealing to the voters. Also saying things and delivering on their promises. A politician telling the truth would be mind blowing. Instead it's all smoke and mirrors. The tories winning unfortunately means crippling public services and I honestly think under Tory rule the NHS will be made private. So whilst J-Cob is the pantomime villain a Rainbow coaliation is the only real hope that change will happen. Personally I would have went with Chuka and adopt an Obama Change type champaign. Plus he could appeal to ethnic minorities who are the voiceless and disaffected voters and be someone who will appeal to the young people. I actually think Chuka if he was abit more polished would be an ideal Labour leader.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Bandit » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:32 pm

Umunna is so young it's probably in his best interest to get another 10 year's of experience before seeking PM. In 10 years he'll be Obama's age in 2008 which is still very young for a politician.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Matisfaction » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:18 pm

He's another Blairite and Labour really need to get away from the "Tory Lite" approach, which is exactly what they would have had with Owen "look I've got my sleeves rolled up" Smith.

Labour needed a shake up, I'm not sure that Socialism and "Social Justice" is the way to go but anything has to be better for them, than going back to the centre right days of Blair. Especially as you've already got a center right Conservative party already in power.

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Re: UK Politics Thread (Brexit)

Postby Big Boss Man » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:58 am

I think them being too lefty and socialist alienates the Daily Mail brigade. You need them on side and whilst Torylite isn't the way to go, you need and I think this was on Question Time or a similar show that Labour are central leaning to the left in their philosophies. I think maybe Labour should clique up with the Lib Dems, Greens et al and be an amalgamation of their best policies. Because the conservatives are on course for a sweeping landslide win and what's hilarious about it all is May is taking a backseat and not doing any debates.

Agreed with the 10 year plan for Chuka. He might be blairesque but I think out of the lot he's the most logical candidate. Andy Burnhams another good guy and did a great job getting justice for the 96 Liverpool fans. I think he'd be someone who would be ideal again but it's really someone who can sweet talk the nation into believing their schtick and want to go out to the polling stations and vote. Because essentially that was what Blair did hanging out with rock stars and putting himself over as a man of the people.


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