The Jim Cornette Thread

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Matisfaction
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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Matisfaction » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:28 pm

Dr. Zoidberg wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:38 am
Yep.

He puts over the Rhodes boys though.
For me, that was by far and away the best match on the card. Apart from that MJF and Bret Hart stood out, but the rest of the show was forgettable to downright awful IMO.

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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Bandit » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:51 pm





I think Jim is missing the point of why people took issue. He didn't outright call him gay but he called him gay in a comedic way and was angry announcers didn't explain "why he would look like that" in an angry tone of voice. He may have meant nothing by saying it, but it sounded to a lot of people like he did. And I don't even know what he wanted from AEW here because it's clear what he's going for with his look and that Dustin said he plans on making him his project as a producer because he thinks he can be a modern Goldust. For a guy who spends all day thinking about liberal politics you'd think he'd know to just leave any joking about him out of the final cut.

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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Dr. Zoidberg » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:05 am


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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Big Boss Man » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:35 am

Bandit wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:48 am
But it's a coach who won once because he had a dream team, not because he was good. If Kip Frye had Hogan, Savage, Hall, Nash, Luger, Bret, etc. he probably would have been successful too. And Eric isn't Paul Heyman whose ideas have evolved over the years. It's always going to be 1997 to Bischoff, whereas if Heyman had a company he wouldn't have chairshots to the head and table spots in the matches like he did in the 90s. Plus remember Eric didn't see any potential in Steve Austin. Granted neither did Vince, who thought Marc Mero was going to be the superstar he took from WCW. But Vince also didn't demand Austin put over Jim Duggan.
If we put it this way, it's an underdog team that broke up another's dynasty of being #1 for a long time. I know Death of WCW tries to paint a different picture of ineptitude but he got WCW on TNT, with a live broadcast, moved away from the cartoony stuff WCW/WWF were doing and again he turned a company that was continually tanking to turn a profit. Did he spend a lot of money? sure, but you need to take big risks for reward. Taking WCW to the top of the business when a couple of years previous they were in the doldrums is I believe a big achievement. As for seeing the potential in Steve, I think had Vince still had Razor, Diesel, Hogan et al Vince would have overlooked him and Mick too. Plus you have the Kliq politicking and it took really Shawn to bow out for Austin to be elevated.

Also going back to the Coach analogy, there's been soccer coaches who have spent millions on players but saw no success so money isn't the be all and end all with creating a successful product. It was Bischoffs alternative ideas and opposite approach to what Vince was doing that played a massive part in WCWs success. Going live on TNT when WWF was pretaped was very smart. It was only when WCW started getting stale and Rock & Austin were getting super popular did the tide start to turn back in WWFs favour.

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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Big Boss Man » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:38 am




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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Bandit » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:54 am

Big Boss Man wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:35 am
Bandit wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:48 am
But it's a coach who won once because he had a dream team, not because he was good. If Kip Frye had Hogan, Savage, Hall, Nash, Luger, Bret, etc. he probably would have been successful too. And Eric isn't Paul Heyman whose ideas have evolved over the years. It's always going to be 1997 to Bischoff, whereas if Heyman had a company he wouldn't have chairshots to the head and table spots in the matches like he did in the 90s. Plus remember Eric didn't see any potential in Steve Austin. Granted neither did Vince, who thought Marc Mero was going to be the superstar he took from WCW. But Vince also didn't demand Austin put over Jim Duggan.
If we put it this way, it's an underdog team that broke up another's dynasty of being #1 for a long time. I know Death of WCW tries to paint a different picture of ineptitude but he got WCW on TNT, with a live broadcast, moved away from the cartoony stuff WCW/WWF were doing and again he turned a company that was continually tanking to turn a profit. Did he spend a lot of money? sure, but you need to take big risks for reward. Taking WCW to the top of the business when a couple of years previous they were in the doldrums is I believe a big achievement. As for seeing the potential in Steve, I think had Vince still had Razor, Diesel, Hogan et al Vince would have overlooked him and Mick too. Plus you have the Kliq politicking and it took really Shawn to bow out for Austin to be elevated.

Also going back to the Coach analogy, there's been soccer coaches who have spent millions on players but saw no success so money isn't the be all and end all with creating a successful product. It was Bischoffs alternative ideas and opposite approach to what Vince was doing that played a massive part in WCWs success. Going live on TNT when WWF was pretaped was very smart. It was only when WCW started getting stale and Rock & Austin were getting super popular did the tide start to turn back in WWFs favour.
That's all stuff they're doing anyway so they don't need hjm. I don't know if you've heard 83 Weeks, but Bischoff talks like a guy who doesn't get it at all. Like on Tony Schiavone's show he gets what the mistakes were and says things sucked, but Bischoff refuses to admit he was wrong about anything. It's all Russo's fault according to him. If he admitted he did dumb things and said if he could go back and change what he did it would be one thing. But to defend ruining Bret, not pushing Jericho, ruining Goldberg, ruining Starrcade 97 "because Sting didn't have a tan", letting Hogan still have power in 1999, etc. means he doesn't need to be working for you. Plus he showed he didn't have any ideas in TNA. The Aces & Eights era was all Bischoff and it sucked. If Dixie had a clue she would have fired him as soon as he said "Let's get a biker gang with D-Lo Brown and my son."

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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Big Boss Man » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:41 am

Bandit wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:54 am
Big Boss Man wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:35 am
Bandit wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:48 am
But it's a coach who won once because he had a dream team, not because he was good. If Kip Frye had Hogan, Savage, Hall, Nash, Luger, Bret, etc. he probably would have been successful too. And Eric isn't Paul Heyman whose ideas have evolved over the years. It's always going to be 1997 to Bischoff, whereas if Heyman had a company he wouldn't have chairshots to the head and table spots in the matches like he did in the 90s. Plus remember Eric didn't see any potential in Steve Austin. Granted neither did Vince, who thought Marc Mero was going to be the superstar he took from WCW. But Vince also didn't demand Austin put over Jim Duggan.
If we put it this way, it's an underdog team that broke up another's dynasty of being #1 for a long time. I know Death of WCW tries to paint a different picture of ineptitude but he got WCW on TNT, with a live broadcast, moved away from the cartoony stuff WCW/WWF were doing and again he turned a company that was continually tanking to turn a profit. Did he spend a lot of money? sure, but you need to take big risks for reward. Taking WCW to the top of the business when a couple of years previous they were in the doldrums is I believe a big achievement. As for seeing the potential in Steve, I think had Vince still had Razor, Diesel, Hogan et al Vince would have overlooked him and Mick too. Plus you have the Kliq politicking and it took really Shawn to bow out for Austin to be elevated.

Also going back to the Coach analogy, there's been soccer coaches who have spent millions on players but saw no success so money isn't the be all and end all with creating a successful product. It was Bischoffs alternative ideas and opposite approach to what Vince was doing that played a massive part in WCWs success. Going live on TNT when WWF was pretaped was very smart. It was only when WCW started getting stale and Rock & Austin were getting super popular did the tide start to turn back in WWFs favour.
That's all stuff they're doing anyway so they don't need hjm. I don't know if you've heard 83 Weeks, but Bischoff talks like a guy who doesn't get it at all. Like on Tony Schiavone's show he gets what the mistakes were and says things sucked, but Bischoff refuses to admit he was wrong about anything. It's all Russo's fault according to him. If he admitted he did dumb things and said if he could go back and change what he did it would be one thing. But to defend ruining Bret, not pushing Jericho, ruining Goldberg, ruining Starrcade 97 "because Sting didn't have a tan", letting Hogan still have power in 1999, etc. means he doesn't need to be working for you. Plus he showed he didn't have any ideas in TNA. The Aces & Eights era was all Bischoff and it sucked. If Dixie had a clue she would have fired him as soon as he said "Let's get a biker gang with D-Lo Brown and my son."
When he gave Hulk creative control that meant Hogan could have sabotaged a lot of potential pushes like for Chris Jericho, Big Kev I think used his position to put a stop to Bills big push, so a lot of WCWs downfall you can pin more on mismanagement and appeasing Hulkster and his buddies. That's why the guys like Y2J, Eddie, Benoit weren't elevated because he probably had Hogan in his ear saying they won't draw etc.

As for Bret not getting over as he should in WCW, I think he had heat with Hall & Nash to a degree for how he punked out Shawn & Hunter and I think Kev had the book at the time so again it was politicking. Bisch had Hulk, Nash in his ear and I think he listened to them too much. He brought them in on huge contracts and I guess when WWF were gaining traction he had to be their yes man otherwise they could say if we don't get our own way we'll go back to Vince, so his hand was forced in a lot of ways and they were really in charge if you think about it, especially Hulk.

The Aces & 8s D'lo and Garrett weren't wise choices but maybe the leader was planned to be someone else. Had it been Bubba, D'von, D.O.C. and Knux that would have been a better group. New Japan are essentially still doing the nWo angle with the BC so it's not like it hasn't been rehashed already. Had they kept the nWo the core Elite group of just Hall, Nash & Hulk and slowly added a few members as time went on it could have prolonged the sustainability of the angle.

It just got too OTT when you had Wolfpac, nWo Black and White, nWo Japan etc and there was far too many members. But again I think it was Hulk looking out for his buddies and have them part of his group.

But going back to my original point, I still think if you're starting up a new wrestling promotion you try and get advice from those who've had success before you. And out of those names who aren't with WWE - Corny, Bischoff and Vince Russo I'd pick Eric ahead of them.

Considering how Corny feels about Kenny and Joey who's kinda unofficially part of the Elite like Disco and the nWo having him on board would create a ton of heat. Russo needs a filter for his ideas and I think he'd make AEW a WWE Attitude parody and they don't want that. Which leaves Eric Bischoff. He seems the more level headed of the bunch and again he pulled WCW out of the doldrums and it became the premiere wrestling company.

In an independent advisory role or as a filter he'd be an asset I believe because of his track record. More so on dealing with TNT execs, merch/branding deals etc. Keep the booking/wrestling aspects separate and not involving him in those aspects, more the business side.

I can't see Tony letting spending go out of control, they've got Mox on board and really they don't need to add many more to their roster. Marty, Flip will come in at some point, I would go all out to get the talent agreement with New Japan, work with Impact, MLW, NWA, etc to get fresh faces involved. Because once you hit TV you don't want to put on the best matches all the time as it gives fans no incentive really to buy the PPVs. Same with using blood, profanity etc, only use it when it serves its purpose.

If NXT wasn't around their talent pool would be much wider but they already having upcoming talent on board like MJF, Hangman etc. Losing Pac was a shame but I don't think it's a permanent thing but I could be incorrect.

To put this back on topic, I can't see Jim Cornette being involved as he's burnt the bridge to AEW already with his comments. He's a guy who could be an asset if he went about things better but he flies off the handle and seems stuck in his ways. You need forward thinking people in a company like AEW. Who are open to change and who don't have any prejudices. With how he's conducting himself right now it does him no favours. There's no place for that type of attitude today, it's antiquated and comes across as bigoted. I think had he relied less on shockvalue and actually use his knowledge of wrestling history he could make an interesting podcast that way. I've no interest whatsoever in him ranting on about how he dislikes Kenny, Joey Ryan etc and how he despises Vince Russo. If he wasn't so volatile, he'd be an asset teaching the talent promos etc and for developing a new generation of wrestling managers in AEW. But his attitude is working hugely against him, which is a shame. Maybe JR could keep him in check, but I can't see that happening though.

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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Bandit » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:55 am

He can't just take credit for the good and not take blame for the bad. If he wants credit for Nitro and the first year and a half of the nWo he has to take blame for 1999 and 2000. If you want to blame Hogan and Nash you have to blame Bischoff for not being a real leader or at the very least not understanding bad ideas. Plus listen to 83 Weeks, he is unrepentant about some major problems.

The guy who is the most level headed and owns up to his mistakes is Kevin Sullivan. But he's working for MLW.
New Japan are essentially still doing the nWo angle with the BC so it's not like it hasn't been rehashed already.
New Japan is different because that idea is fresher to the Japanese fans. The West has seen: nWo 2002, Nexus, CM Punk's Nexus, Main Event Mafia, The Band, Immortal, Aces & Eights, and others. And only Nexus was a slight success but they blew it when Cena kept beating Barrett. New Japan hadn't seen that angle for a decade if you count Onita's one man invasion, and nWo Japan but that wasn't as big as it was in WCW.

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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Big Boss Man » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:49 am

Bandit wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:55 am
He can't just take credit for the good and not take blame for the bad. If he wants credit for Nitro and the first year and a half of the nWo he has to take blame for 1999 and 2000. If you want to blame Hogan and Nash you have to blame Bischoff for not being a real leader or at the very least not understanding bad ideas. Plus listen to 83 Weeks, he is unrepentant about some major problems.

The guy who is the most level headed and owns up to his mistakes is Kevin Sullivan. But he's working for MLW.
The main issue was he gave creative control to Hulk and they made Nash booker. That was a recipe for disaster. Hogans not going to step aside for Bill Goldberg, let alone Y2J, Eddie, Benoit etc. Logic suggests you have the older guys let the younger guys go over and build new stars. But the old guard didn't want to give up their spot. If Eric had said right you're elevating Jericho to Hogan, you can imagine Hulk balking at that and taking the ball & going home so to speak.

So there wasn't really much Bischoff could do when he had talent with "favoured nations" when money offers were matched and creative control in their contracts. That meant he was paying over the odds for talent really. It's like the equivalent of breaking the luxury tax in the NBA. By 99/00, Hogan et al value was diminishing in comparison to Austin & Rock but if he phased them out they'd turn up in the WWF. Which of course they did and Hogan/Rock was one of the most memorable WrestleMania matches of that decade.

Had he cut them out of the picture, he still had a lot of talent tied into the nWo universe so really Eric should have ended the angle either and created a new, younger WCW, but you had too many guys on big contracts, guaranteed in most instances, and if you paid them off or let them go to Vince that would have been counter productive.
New Japan is different because that idea is fresher to the Japanese fans. The West has seen: nWo 2002, Nexus, CM Punk's Nexus, Main Event Mafia, The Band, Immortal, Aces & Eights, and others. And only Nexus was a slight success but they blew it when Cena kept beating Barrett. New Japan hadn't seen that angle for a decade if you count Onita's one man invasion, and nWo Japan but that wasn't as big as it was in WCW.
Good point but the Bullet Club was essentially Finn and the Good Brothers paying homage to the nWo. Then when the Bucks joined they brought in the DX elements. Factions have always been a big part of wrestling as we know, but BC if we break it down (pun intended) was just a hybrid import of DX/nWo to Japan. I agree it seemed more fresh but the origins are what they are. You could argue it's started to become stale now since Finn, Gallows and Anderson, AJ, Kenny, Cody, the Bucks, Hangman and Marty aren't apart of anymore. And that was the issue that Bisch should have fixed in WCW when nWo was getting stale you end the angle and go on to the next thing.

I think they've all spoke on how much nWo and DX influenced them and you've had Razor and Syxx say they're flattered by their homage to what they did before. So you could even argue that New Japan brought over an idea that Eric popularised in WCW and still made it revelant decades later.

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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Dr. Zoidberg » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:21 pm



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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Dr. Zoidberg » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:29 pm


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Re: The Jim Cornette Thread

Post by Bandit » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:25 am

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This is a self own because it makes it look like he has a tiny penis.

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